As said above apparently Toshiba is going to announce this week they will stop production of HD-DVD. This shouldnt be a surprise to anyone who has looked at sales figures in the past few months.

I never bought anything HD-DVD but really feel bad for the peoplpe who got tricked by the low price of the players. Toshiba slashed the price after it became obvious they lost, they wanted to squeeze that last bit of money out of consumers by selling a soon to be obsolete product.

Anyway, I think I set out to prove that your “presentation” of the format war was misleading and I said (maybe on IM, can’t remember) that you should rename the site to BiasBurners (joking of course) as a result. Later when we locked horns on consoles, I pointed out in my last comment that your insinuations about the PS3 and Xbox 360 were false, invalid and again, the result of what I think is blind bias.

However, you’ve done the work for me as your last reply was the most revealing of all, so let’s take a loom shall we :-)

“”And Jobs may well be right. He is not the first however, as many have already speculated for one or two years that both of the formats will lose (=will not gain DVD-like market dominance). I think I brought this up in the conclusion of my article as well.”"

It was, I didn’t say it to counter any claim you made, I just wanted to back up how I said any win for Blu-ray or HD DVD doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things.

“”Your debate strategy is quantity over quality, so it is very difficult to find the actual punchlines from all that (I think I must fine tune the site layout for you). And you have not been able to undo any of the original staments I’ve made.”"

Well, first of all I don’t see how it is quantity over quality, I mean what exactly does Blu-ray offer that HD DVD doesn’t besides 20GB extra space? Look at the video and audio in the specs for both, they are mirror images. HD DVD won the early quality tests, now its pretty much broken even between the two, especially when it comes to consumers who aren’t going to take screenshots and count artifacts, and those who do will come to the same conclusion; win some, lose some: on a title by title basis.

As for quantity, I think it’s fair as you brought up the PS3 as if it is actually a Blu-ray stand-alone and nothing more. Then you also made little of Microsoft’s contribution to HD DVD in the form of the external drive, so I said the 270,000 figure simply because it proved demand. By DVD scale, it’s a low figure, by next gen Blu-ray / HD DVD players sales, it’s quite good.

Finally, I already mentioned what I set out to achieve after reading your article. But it is worth pointing out that a lot of what I address appears to be the favoritism of Blu-ray and Sony in general, and I’ve done that. Maybe I left some stuff unaddressed, but it’s not like we both didn’t do that ;-) But as I said, I think what I said out to do, I’ve done!

“”I’ll comments one of your comments, regarding the strategy to attract Audio/Video segment. In this sense the two (360, PS3) are not at all similar. PS3 looks and feels like a device you can put next to you 40″ flat panel and Bang & Olufsen home theatre set.”"

Since you have put the word kitchen and Xbox 360 in the same argument (later on), I’m sorry, but I have to do it….

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2026/2157291078_000775f720_o.jpg

Wow, it’s a nice setup, but what’s with the George Foreman grill? ;-) Come on man!! You have got to be kidding, your defense now is about the design? Both consoles don’t look very well at all, they are too big for starters, might have something to do with them being out only a year and 2 years…. you know FAT PS2 looks like crap, so does original Xbox. I’m not sure where you were going with that…

“”It has been designed for AV-playback from the start, AND has native support for the current leading high definition format. I think there is a DVB-tuner add-on coming as well?”"

Again, I was never doubting the PS3’s multimedia capabilities, I was telling you that its goal is not at all exclusive or original to Sony. The Xbox 360 was also designed for AV-playback from the start… it is one of the few Windows Media Extender v2 devices available…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Media_Center_Extender#Version_2_Extenders

Of course I have beefs with Microsoft’s strategy by tying it originally to Windows Media Center, but the dashboard update over the holidays has been a remarkable improvement for multimedia and a sign that MS knows where its faults are, now u have excellent multimedia without MCE or Vista. Go check the reviews of the multimedia capabilities from serious tech sites and blogs after the holiday 2007 dashboard update… but that’s neither here nor there, I am only saying that AV intentions are definitely not exclusive to PS3.

“”360 looks like cheap crap unfortunately. It is a device that matches your toaster in the kitchen. HD DVD as an external drive is a joke, if you think about installing one conveniently to your home A/V rack/shelf.”"

How can you say 360 looks like crap and not say the PS3 looks like crap? That’s a bit revealing mate! HD DVD as an external drive is an accessory created by the company for whoever wants it and 270,000 didn’t find it a joke, but you can stand alone and shout from the rooftops if you want to ;-) And it’s not like it takes up amazingly large amounts of space at all… have you ever even seen or used one… or an Xbox 360 even?

“”The add-on drive has been sold fairly well due to the low price – for some time it was the cheapest alternative to HD video”"

It was low priced because it was an accessory, an external drive that relied on the Xbox 360 console. I wouldn’t call it a cheap piece of hardware for that reason, it relies on the Xbox 360 or Cyberlink software on Windows to function properly, it’s not a stand-alone drive, just an option to add HD DVD functionality to a piece of hardware you already own.

But hey… “cheapest alternative to HD video”…. look up definition for high definition video! but that’s exactly my point, you don’t give an inch to anything other than Sony’s console and Sony’s format. You want me to talk nicely about PS3? no problem, I see its merits and they are many, but I always… you know this from IM… have had problems with Sony’s strategy for it and generally I was correct, look at its entire first year, but I won’t say its crap or anything like that because thats misinformation.

“”Will Microsoft release a Blu-ray add-on?”"

A comment at CES basically said that if consumers wanted it, then it would be an option to be explored. Then a press release confirmed there are no plans for Blu-ray on Xbox 360 and that Microsoft is still solely backing the HD DVD format. If the remaining major studios drop HD DVD which they might do, then I’d assume the Xbox 360 would get a Blu-ray peripheral too… sure.

Your debate strategy is quantity over quality, so it is very difficult to find the actual punchlines from all that (I think I must fine tune the site layout for you). And you have not been able to undo any of the original staments I’ve made.

I’ll comments one of your comments, regarding the strategy to attract Audio/Video segment. In this sense the two (360, PS3) are not at all similar. PS3 looks and feels like a device you can put next to you 40″ flat panel and Bang & Olufsen home theatre set. It has been designed for AV-playback from the start, AND has native support for the current leading high definition format. I think there is a DVB-tuner add-on coming as well?

360 looks like cheap crap unfortunately. It is a device that matches your toaster in the kitchen. HD DVD as an external drive is a joke, if you think about installing one conveniently to your home A/V rack/shelf. The add-on drive has been sold fairly well due to the low price – for some time it was the cheapest alternative to HD video, and since media made people think HD DVD had chance, it was an interesting offer. A cheap trial to the next generation.

Will Microsoft release a Blu-ray add-on?

Anyway, I think I’ll leave it at that because I think I’ve said some very good points which were validated by not being challenged at all ;-)

P.S. It doesn’t matter who wins in the grand scheme of things anyway. This is not the second coming of DVD, and it will never be.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Trends/Disc_Sales/Blu-ray_Dominates_Disc_Sales_Chart_Post-Warner_Announcement/1383

And you know, Winner takes it All… lol

Best Regards!

Actually it was ICQ, no wonder you forget so many facts ;-) haha!

\”\”Regarding the price of PlayStation 3. I still say that it is not and was not expensive. I am well aware that the consumer preference has been towards Wii and Xbox 360, which are cheaper alternatives.\”\”

How couldn\’t you be aware? ;-) Wii is approaching, or has passed 20 million sales. Xbox 360 is approaching 18 million. PS3 is only starting to sell well \”now\” because they dropped the price. Xbox 360 saw an incredible boost in sales after Halo 3 and Mass Effect were released… over 4 million units. That\’s because it is a games console, so if you release amazing games like Halo 3, Mass Effect, Gears of War etc. you sell well. Very simple and easy to understand concept that I think, for at least most of the PS3\’s life so far, it\’s maker forgot.

\”\”Sony PlayStation 2 cost FIM3290 when it launched in Finland. (It could have been 3490, I am not sure..) That is roughly €560, if the inflation is neglected. I don’t recall anyone whining how expensive PS2 was at the time! And the many people that bought it got a good game console, and a poor DVD player.\”\”

And how many do you think bought it because it is a DVD player and not because it plays games? I\’d put my money on the figure being a single digital percentage. Same happens with PS3 and Blu-ray mate!

\”\”At this very moment PlayStation 3 costs in Finland €459. If you buy it you get the best gaming hardware (not the best gaming selection though) and apparently a very good DVD/Blu-ray player, that can also act as a media center.\”\”

You seem to forget a few things about its competitors. Xbox 360 is a very powerful console and just because the 7-core Cell processor is present in PS3, that doesn\’t mean a clear cut win for gaming for PS3 at all, especially not for a few more years.

7 cores means the PS3 packs potential fopr a huge amount of processing power, that\’s not a secret. But for game developers, the bottleneck always lies with graphics. The RSX in PS3 has a clock-rate of 550MHz and the Xenos in Xbox 360 has a clock-rate of 500MHz. On paper, many non-tech oriented sites called it for the PS3 based on 50MHz.

The truth is, that 10% extra clock speed is easily pushed aside in favor of Xenos\’ unified shader architecture; instead of separate pixel and vertex pipelines, there is a single unified pipeline to do both. Therefore, pipeline instructions don\’t have to wait for others. This pushes the efficiency rate much higher, allowing Xenos to run at 100% efficiency when developers code the right way for the architecture. Typically, high performance chips only run at about 70% efficiency at most.

Proof of the Xbox 360\’s amazing graphics power is shown in tis game line-up. Even with the old DVD format, titles like Gears of War can outpace what games the PS3 has. Now I know it is the early days, but this is still a valid point and RSX vs. Xenos is a very important debate.

I\’m NOT trying to take away anything from the PS3\’s power but I want you to at least admit that Xbox 360 holds incredible hardware for gaming and going by game titles right now, it can still sit at the #1 spot for performance of all three consoles.

The Cell processor has 7 cores, which is great, but its worth noting how complicated developing for two or three cores is. One thing the PS3 will definitely have is it will always be a good computing piece of hardware to have. The hardware in Xbox 360 is truly next-gen too, in fact, Microsoft should not have released it when they did for many reasons, like the 33% failure rate of the initial shipments because they couldn\’t keep the hardware cool enough.

Again, I\’m not fighting the PS3 on this one, I\’m just pointing out how powerful the Xbox 360 is. I would, for example, love to see some way that Xenos could be used for Folding@Home over LIVE, that would be a great use of resources like the Cell is for Folding@Home, and a good contribution from MS to important research.

Also, you said that PS3 is a media center, and it is. However, you shoudl mention that Xbox 360 is also a media center, it is a Windows Media Extender v2 and Microsoft is finally waking up to the demands of its owners when it comes to media, by for example, finally giving proper support for MPEG-4 streaming from Windows XP/Vista, and I can definitely back up how well it plays back the DivX, or XviD video formats as I\’ve watched tons of videos on it since the support was added.

There is a long way to go for both when it comes to media center. I honestly do think that eventually the Xbox 360 will have a version with an internal HD DVD drive for viewing movies, but the DVD format will always be used for games. That \”is\” a problem, but so far the compression in sue for 360 has beaten it, but in 4 years the extra capacity of Blu-ray will become obvious I think.

So yet again, I love both consoles, but its not like one is extremely powerful and the other isn\’t.

\”\”So PS3 is way cheaper than a Panasonic Blu-ray player, and on the other hand costs roughly €200 more than a Toshiba HD DVD. For me that seems like a bargain, at least now when the good video quality and features of PS3 have been confirmed!\”\”

This only applies to people who want to invest in Blu-ray hardware though, that\’s the point I\’m trying to make, and you and I both know the Blu-ray isn\’t a big deal for uninformed consumers at all.

\”\”So far the consumers have chosen differently. Comparison to Wii however is not quite valid, as Wii is expanding the market to new areas, and does not necessarily compete for “gamer audience”. Sony’s idea was also the expand the market to new areas — the home AV.\”\”

Wii certainly does attract new gamers, and that is part of its overall strategy, but it doesn\’t depend on new gamers for sales. Look at the pre-release of PS3 and Wii at E3 2006, who was the King of the show? It was the Wii and that was a complete surprise. You had to wait hours in line to use a Wii console, and people did, and this was the \”E3 Expo\”, it was full of traditional gamers, and they still crowned it the King of E3.

Even today it is a much have gadget for a gamer. Being completely honest I\’ll say that while I love Wii\’s innovative features, I still need powerful graphics filled gaming. But the Wii is games console and it provides hours of fun, it\’s like havign the Karaoke machine at a party, if you have a Wii in your house, and an Xbox 360, and your friends are around, it\’s an equal battle for which to play with, and I can definitely back that claim up and I know too many people who have agreed with me on that. Wii drives people mad.

It does compete with Sony and Xbox 360 directly because it relies on software sales. Each time I go to GameStop I see the stacks of games for each, Xbox 360 on one set of shelves, PS3 on one set of shelves and Wii on one set of Shelves. Usually I can\’t buy a game for all three, and neither can 99% of all people who go shopping for games.

Does Wii have software problems? Sure! Nintendo isn\’t kicking its third party developers enough for better titles, or instead it is trying to push out its first-party titles excessively while the Wii is still selling like its air in a poisonous world, nevertheless, a complaint from me about it would be the need for more exclusive titles from third parties.

Of course it has to be put in the same Category, it is taking money that otherwise might have gone on PS3 or Xbox 360 hardware, and both Microsoft and Sony hate that ;-)

I just want to make one more example as you work for Nokia so you know a lot about handheld electronics. The PSP would seem, on paper, like it could trash the Nintendo DS around the place. I own both and I admit that the Sony PSP has GFX that are unchallenged by DS.

DS also does not have a web browser built in, you have to buy a game title for it, it doesn\’t play video and audio like the PSP does (unless again, through a third-party accessory/method) and it lacks other great features of PSP. But when it comes down to consumers, the DS wipes the floor with the PSP.

PSP sales: 30.34 Million

NDS sales: 66.02 Million

Now how the hell did that happen? One definite answer is Nintendo\’s ability to make the world of \”gamers\” wider. Besides that, the control of DS was innovative and made way for much more possibilities than using the direction keys, analog stick and 4 buttons of the PSP. Now I love my PSP, but I\’ve been writing about all of this stuff for a long time and I know that it\’s getting its sexy ass kicked by Nintendo even though it is more feature packed and has better graphics.

That\’s not really what we are talking about though, it\’s just an example of how the \”winner on paper\” can sometimes be the \”loser in reality\”.

One last point. You say that Sony\’s aim was also to expand the market to AV. That is not exclusive to Sony. Now the inclusion of DVD drive in PS2 was huge for a time before stand-alones became cheaper and the PS2 started throwing up those familiar Disc Read errors, so you have to give that to Sony.. but in this generation, MS put out the first Console / Media Center in the Xbox 360. They have also since offered the option of HD DVD to anyone who is interested and sold 270,000 units of it. So the expansion into AV is not an innovative or exclusive feature of the PS3 either.

\”\”The future will tell if Sony’s market expansion succeeds. Blu-ray’s victory over HD DVD was a step to the right direction for them. I guess now we are waiting for the game line-up to improve.\”\”

I have to repeat myself about this. Firstly, it\’s not over till the fat lady sings. Paramount, Universal and DreamWorks might walk away from HD DVD, who knows, but if they don\’t it\’s not over. Also, the BBC, another huge player for a part of the home entertainment market, has decided not to go Blu-ray exclusive based on Warner/HBO/Newline decision, citing the Planet Earth sales.

The victory that you are calling early would not be a victory for consumers. Neither would the victory of HD DVD. Still though, let\’s compare. Who sold more stand-alones or drives made \”only\” for movie viewing? Who has the lowest prices of said devices? Who\’s specs are more consumer-friendly and less restrictive? You KNOW the answer, so why with all of that would Blu-ray win? because it\’s gang is bigger, I\’ve said this before.

Most consumers don\’t know what either format actually is, or why they would prefer one over the other anyway, but they are \”not\” choosing the winner and that is plain obvious. And again, so I\’m not accused of anything, it would be the same if Warner went HD DVD exclusive and then all studios followed, it would not be a consumer choice.

Also, if you think the PS3 will suddenly pass out Xbox 360 and Wii based on a bigger game line up anytime soon, you are definitely dreaming mate ;-)

With all respect! and sorry for how long these replies have been ;-)

Take care bud!

Regarding the price of PlayStation 3. I still say that it is not and was not expensive. I am well aware that the consumer preference has been towards Wii and Xbox 360, which are cheaper alternatives.

Sony PlayStation 2 cost FIM3290 when it launched in Finland. (It could have been 3490, I am not sure..) That is roughly €560, if the inflation is neglected. I don’t recall anyone whining how expensive PS2 was at the time! And the many people that bought it got a good game console, and a poor DVD player.

At this very moment PlayStation 3 costs in Finland €459. If you buy it you get the best gaming hardware (not the best gaming selection though) and apparently a very good DVD/Blu-ray player, that can also act as a media center.

Now a Panasonic Blu-ray player from the same market costs €699. Toshiba’s HD DVD player price adjustments have not reached the Finnish market yet, so at the moment the HDE1 costs €249 with 5 movies bundled.

So PS3 is way cheaper than a Panasonic Blu-ray player, and on the other hand costs roughly €200 more than a Toshiba HD DVD. For me that seems like a bargain, at least now when the good video quality and features of PS3 have been confirmed!

So far the consumers have chosen differently. Comparison to Wii however is not quite valid, as Wii is expanding the market to new areas, and does not necessarily compete for “gamer audience”. Sony’s idea was also the expand the market to new areas — the home AV.

The future will tell if Sony’s market expansion succeeds. Blu-ray’s victory over HD DVD was a step to the right direction for them. I guess now we are waiting for the game line-up to improve.